Jul/0912
Bombers Bicker: Buehrle to Cooperstown?
Does he have the body of work to get into Cooperstown?
Now with a perfect game and a no-hitter on his resume, it begs the question: is Mark Buehrle a Hall of Famer?
The Bombers debate in the latest forum
In the history of baseball, there have been 18 perfect games. The latest of those 18, of course, is Chicago White Sox left hander Mark Buehrle. In addition to his perfect game, Buehrle previously threw a no-hitter against the Texas Rangers in 2007.
Consider the names of the 5 other pitchers who have thrown both a perfect game and a no hitter: Cy Young, Addie Joss, Jim Bunning, Sandy Koufax, and Randy Johnson. Impressive, right? As a matter of fact, every one of those pitchers is (or will be in Randy Johnson's case) inducted in the Baseball Hall of Fame.
Does Buehrle belong?
Chris Cwik
Pros:
-Longevity - Buehrle was called up in 2000, he was only 21 years old. At age 30, he has already pitched 10 years in the majors.
- Durability - Over his 10 seasons in the majors. He has rarely been hurt and has had 8 straight season with over 200 innings pitched.
- Consistency - His 3.76 career ERA is well under the league average. He has only had one losing season out of his 10. Eight seasons with more than 200 IP.
-Achievements - Let's see, only the sixth pitcher to throw a no hitter and the perfect game.
Cons:
-Star power - Mark Buehrle is very good at what he does, but he has never been (and probably never will be) recognized as a superstar. He doesn't strike out many batters and throws in the mid-high 80s.
-Counting Stats - This is where Buehrle really struggles. The voters really consider things like K's and Wins. Buehrle has never won over 20 games in a season. As stated above, he doesn't overpower many batters and his highest K total was 165 in 2004. Not to mention, Buehrle only has 130 career wins. He would have to up his win total in the next 10 or so years to reach 300.
-Longevity - Let's keep in mind, Buehrle is about half way through his career. He has stayed durable and consistent thus far, but that could change as he gets older.
-Style - Buehrle relies on poise and control. What happens if he loses a few ticks off his fastball as he ages? Maybe hitters start to tee off against him. However, guys like Tom Glavine and Jamie Moyer pitched long into their 40s by relying on control and poise. Buehrle will need to pitch at least 10 more effective years to reach some of the counting stats the voters require.
Cwik: Mussina's bound for Cooperstown. Buerhle maybe?
Conclusion:
Buehrle has a long way to go in order to convince voters that he is worthy. However, the internet has enabled many stat-savvy writers to gain entry into the voting pool. These writers care less about wins, and more about the individual stats that pitchers put up. They may look at the fact that Buehrle put up an ERA well below the major league average, and that his team was the reason he hasn't won 20 games yet. In this way, he could very much be like Mike Mussina. Many stat-oriented writers thought Mussina was a hall of famer based on his consistency, strikeouts, and longevity. Many older writers pointed out that Moose never won 20 games in a season. Of course, that all changed when Mussina finally won 20 games in his final season. Now, it appears Moose is well on his way to the HOF. Buehrle is going to need to continue dominance over the next 10 years and hopefully luck his way into one or two 20 win seasons. With a little bit of luck, and a little bit of veteran savvy, Buehrle might just do it, but the odds are probably against him. Then again, there is nothing ordinary about Buehrle's career. Maybe he continues to defy the odds.
Blake
Gee... Thanks, Cwik. You basically just concluded that Mark Buehrle probably won't get in... but Maybe he does. Way to take a stance. You should run for office. "I don't necessarily think that the health care reforms will go through, but maybe they do." Who knows, right? Maybe he does, maybe he doesn't.
Here's what I do know: Mark Buehrle deserves a plaque in Cooperstown.
Looking at Cwik's Pros/Cons, Mark Buehrle's longevity, consistency, durability, and star power (from the cons listings) reminds me of another pitcher who started his career in Chicago...
Never struck out a lot of batters, relied on poise and precision, didn't light up the radar gun with mid-high 90s fastballs... C'mon, you're thinking it. Wild Bill's shitting himself... yup, he just realized it... Sean Hef not so much. He's reading up on Liverpool's Garrard's suspension or some foreign soccer shit.
Greg Maddux.
Greg Maddux is Mark Buerhle 1.0
Mark Buehrle is, not just comparable, but a dead ringer for Greg Maddux, a sure-fire Hall of Famer. Except Buehrle's better than Greg Maddux. Did that just blow your mind?
I hear feathers ruffling. And before you charge my Queens apartment with pitchforks and torches consider the following:
First, I'm conceding that Buehrle has never won 20 games in a season or a Gold Glove or reached 300 wins (and he won't. Buehrle has no desire to pitch for another 10-12 years) or a Cy Young (but this could should be the year).
The stats are a wash. Consider this, across the board, Maddux's numbers are fractionally better. And I stress fractional to the point that it's literally decimal points. A tenth of a point here, five tenths there... whatever. (http://www.baseball-reference.com/compare.cgi?top=/players/b/buehrma01.shtml)
The numbers wash when you consider that Maddux pitched in the NL for his entire career (weaker lineups with the pitchers hitting when compared to the AL with the DH) & Maddux pitched in more pitcher friendly parks than Buehrle (want to argue Atlanta's Turner Field, LA's Dodger Stadium, or San Diego's PetCo Park against The Cell? No, you don't.).
Both of Buehrle's history pieces came at home in a ballpark that sends off home runs like Hamas shoots off missiles. What makes the perfect game more amazing is that it was done in July when the ball was jumping off the bats... well, for the Sox anyways.
Mark Buehrle is Greg Maddux 2.0.. See what I'm sayin here?
So while Greg Maddux has 300 wins and 4 Cy Young Awards, he has neither a no-hitter nor a perfect game whereas Mark Buehrle--and only 4 other pitchers--has both.
Honestly, the only thing that's holding Buehrle's campaign up is the fact that he's been buried on some mediocre to bad White Sox teams. From 2001 - 2003, Buehrle was the only highlight of terrible Sox teams starring the oft injured Big Hurt's ankle, Magglio Ordonez's knee, and Carlos Lee's extra 30 lbs.
Think Greg Maddux would have his "star power" if he played with those craptacular Cubs teams in the 90s? Please, the Cubs were just as obscure as the Sox until Sammy Sosa started jacking 60 HRs a year.
Here's what Buehrle's final resume will most likely look when it's all said and done:
- 175 wins
- 3.80 ERA
- .600 Winning %
- No-hitter
- Perfect Game
- World Series Ring (a World Series in which he registered a save in Game 3)
Is he a first ballot Hall of Famer? There's no way the writers vote him in on the first go. Most likely, the writers put Buehrle in the hall on the 7-10th chance. But he's getting into the Hall, no questions asked.
Oh, and this just in tonight... Buehrle just added another bullet point to his resume: 45 consecutive batters retired. That's a major league record, kids. So like I said, Mark Buehrle's getting into the Hall of Fame.
Monty
Buehrle, 30, has thrown almost 2000 innings since being called up in 2000. Since then and entering Tuesday, he has a career ERA of 3.76, better than Mike Mussina and Andy Pettitte. In that same time, Buehrle has 133 wins, that’s more wins than CC Sabathia, Johan Santana and Curt Schilling. Buehrle has some nice credentials, but does that make him a possible Hall of Famer? Most likely not, Buehrle certainly has great aspects to his game, but the biggest difference between the hall of very good and the Hall of Fame is dominance. Granted, he has thrown a perfect game, one of 18 in MLB history to do so, Buehrle has never…
1. Won more than 20 games in a season, only won more than 16 once
2. Finished higher than 5th in Cy Young Voting, only one top five finish
3. Never struck out more than 200 hitters in a season, his highest is 165
Only one starting pitcher has a higher career ERA than Buehrle and has made the Hall that is Red Ruffing, who stopped pitching over 60 years ago. In fact, only 4 of the 75 pitcher in the HOF have an ERA of 3.60 or higher and of those players, Red Ruffing is the most recent to do so.
What do you Mean you forgot about RED RUFFING?!?!
In order for Buehrle to even be in consideration of the Hall, he needs to start dominating AL hitting soon and for a long time. Seeing as how unlikely that is, you can end the Mark Buehrle to the Hall discussion for now, if he gets to 300 wins, the discussion could be revisited. Mark Buehrle is reliable, sturdy and always good for a quick game. He may not become a Hall of Famer, but, having a World Series ring, hitting a home run, being a four time all-star, throwing two no-hitters and a perfect game is not bad to have on the resume.
Final Forum Verdict: 1 vote supporting, 1 vote opposing, and 1 vote twiddling its thumbs more nervously than Woody Allen. Bombers scorecard can't predict Mark Buehrle's Cooperstown destination. Blake fervidly holds that, while his is an opinion completely biased and partial, that Buehrle's going to the Hall and the Special Guest Bombers don't know shit from a hole in the ground. Monty straight up says, "No. Show me more." (Ask how that approach worked out for Pacman Jones in Vegas for me, will ya, pal?) And Cwik just pre-maturely ejaculated.
So what do you think? Buehrle adding the HOF to his autograph: Yes or No? Let us know how you see it.
July 30th, 2009
So, i get ripped for being objective? Homer much, Blake?
July 30th, 2009
what rhymes with meushbag??
July 30th, 2009
Keep commenting, bitches. It’s a forum. That’s the point.
Blake. Relax. Have some dip, and let’s try to take emotion out of it. I know you’re about as jacked up as JoJo the idiot circus when he gets a new pet right now since the salty / bleachy taste of the perfect game is still as fresh in your mouth as last night’s weed and hooker spit. But you can’t just go around saying that things like strike outs, velocity, win totals, cy youngs and winning percentage shouldn’t be taken into account by HOF voters.
We need to ask ourselves if we’d even be having this discussion if he’d walked a batter last week, or given up a groundball with eyes, a bloop single, whatever. I say no. Is the combination of a no-no a perfect game and a WS save impressive? Yes. Is it grounds for induction? Not hardly. Any pitcher can show flashes of brilliance, even 3 times. The difference between Buehrle and the other five perfection/no-no owners is that Koufax, Johnson, Young, Joss and Bunning were all dominant pitchers, guys who threw smoke, struck the shit out of people, won a fuckload of games, had low ERA’s and three of them either won Cy Young awards or had the Cy Young Award NAMED AFTER THEM.
HOF inductions are about individual statistics, not team accomplishments. And like it or not, no-hitters and perfect games are team efforts (Thank you Dewayne Wise). Buehrle’s individual stats are good, but not great – and certainly not Hall of Fame great.
Don’t get me wrong. What Mark’s done here is an amazing thing and my hat’s off to him. Even a northsider can pause and appreciate brilliance. But even in a discussion between three southsiders, you’ve got one fence sitter and one decided no.
In the end, Buehrle will be remembered as a great pitcher who played on some great Sox teams, but Cooperstown is reserved for really special players – and he’ll fall just short.
July 30th, 2009
c’mon no one like my meushbag joke? Really?
Yeah, Buehrle’s gonna have to be awesome for like five or six years in row and then maybe we can talk about him realistically getting in. Buehrle’s not a world beater. Blue Collar dude. No matter what he’ll be imortalized on the Southside when he’s done. I think a lot of Sox have their “Buehrle Goggles” when it comes to all this HOF talk. I say he shaves his beard. It’s pretty gross.
July 30th, 2009
Shave his beard?
I’ve seen old pictures of you, Heffernan. You used to be a beard guy
July 30th, 2009
@Cwik:
No, you don’t get ripped for being objective. You get ripped for forgetting your birth control and playing too safe. It’s a yes or no question and you answered “Ya-No”.
@Sean_Hef:
Meushbag rhymes with #-of-consecutive-soccer-posts.
Annnnd you might be the king of grotesque beards.
@WildBill:
Fair Enough. A valid argument. But I’m not backing off Buerhle’s HOF entry. And, no, we wouldn’t be having this conversation if Buerhle gave up a bloop single… a walk? Maybe.
@All 3 of you meushbags:
You all completely ignored the Buerhle to Maddux comparison. 100%. Now, that’s either because you think it’s completely ridiculous and holds no water OR that it’s just a casual ignoring of the argument I’m using to prove my point.
I Might be willing to bend a little bit if Buerhle did this as a one-time, flash-in-the-pan type of accomplishment. Because the sun shines even on a dog’s ass some days. But he did it twice. Against formidable offensive lineups. In U.S. Cellular Field.
Yes, guys like Schilling, Santana, The Big Unit, Pedro, Cy Young, Nolan Ryan, et al do/did throw smoke and ring up Ks, but Greg Maddux did neither. Is anybody arguing his induction? No. He, like Buerhle, went about his business every five days and tried to do it in as few pitches as possible.
Guys throwing smoke and stacking up Ks are a dime a dozen. The cerebral pitchers like Maddux and Buerhle (and Koufax towards the end of his career) are the special types of pitcher that too often is overlooked.
Buerhle’s BEEN awesome for 8 outta 9 years (he pitched an extremely limited amount of time in his rookie year so I’m not counting it). He’s a friggin clydesdale. He’s the best pitcher Chicago’s seen since… Name me a pitcher for either Chicago team that did it for longer AND was a part of a WS winner for the City?
Yes, all championships are the result of a team effort, team efforts contribute heavily to a pitcher’s wins, which is why wins is a shallow measurement for a pitcher’s success (as mentioned in Monty’s forum piece, Buerhle has more wins than Curt Schilling).
The bottom line here is that Mark Buerhle does the same things that future HOF’er Greg Maddux does AND he did it in the tougher half of the majors in a hitter’s park. And he did it, until 2011 anyways, in one uniform. There’s something to be said for a player in today’s game that did it wearing the same hat. Hitters know exactly how MB is approaching every at-bat in every situation–the same they did with Maddux–and they still can’t figure him out.
That’s dominance. That’s greatness. That’s Cooperstown.
July 30th, 2009
Here is the problem with the Maddux argument. Buehrle is a very good pitcher. Consistent, durable, etc. However, he has never dominated compared to his peers. Maddux completely dominated every other pitcher of his era. Buehrle and Maddux do rely on the same pitching style (low velocity, savvy, location), but that is where the comparisons end. Everyone knew that Maddux was a superstar when he was pitching. No one says that about Buehrle. Is he underrated? Hell yeah! That doesn’t mean that he dominated in the same way Maddux did. Maddux was the Johan Santana, Roy Halladay, CC Sabathia of his decade. Buehrle is not the same pitcher as those guys. That’s why Mussina is a good comparison for Buehrle’s HOF chances. Underrated pitcher, never considered the best of his time, was very effective for many many years, etc. If Buehrle gets in, it’s for those reasons. Yes, the no hitter and perfect game are nice, but he has to have the career numbers that the old baseball writers salivate over. I look at Maddux’s numbers, and I see complete dominance for a number of years. He was easily one of the best, if not the best, pitchers in the league for 5 years. Buehrle, sadly, cannot say the same thing. He’s a great player, but I can’t see a Maddux comparison.
July 30th, 2009
Ironically, pitchers that have thrown 2 or more career no hitters hasn’t been the best precedent for the Hall of Fame.
Albeit there have been only 15 pitchers, since 1954, that have thrown 2 or more no hitters.
4-In the Hall: Spahn, Bunning, Koufax and Ryan
1-Should get in Hall: Randy Johnson
1-Shouldn’t get in the Hall: Nomo
8-Didn’t get into the Hall: Busby, Chance, Forsch, Holtzman, Jones, Maloney…
This leaves out Mark Buehrle. As I said before, his chances are very small, he needs more than just the two no-no’s. He doesn’t have, or project to have, enough wins, K’s, or a strong enough ERA. Nor has he been considered one of the 5 best pitchers of his era.
BTW, Maddux struck out over 3,000 hitters, and had a run from 1992-1998 where he 127-53, had over 1200 k’s, 4 Cy Youngs and an ERA of 2.15! That says dominance to me
July 30th, 2009
@ Blake
You are fucking high. “Koufax towards the end of his career”? Everyone backs off the heat as they get older, but Sandy spent most of his career STRIKING MOTHERFUCKERS OUT (side note: caps do not denote yelling, you just can’t bold stuff in comments sections). And yes, I ignored the Maddux comparison because I don’t see it. No way he’s better than Maddux. You’re def seeing this whole thing through Sox colored glasses. Maddux was an intimidator. You don’t win 15 or more games in so many consecutive seasons by being serebral. You do it by being the guy nobody wants to face. You do it by striking out 3371 batters in your career. Arguing velocity is almost moot when you consider that pitchers are getting faster. Maddux was throwing in the mid 80’s when most guys (Nolan Ryan excluded) were topping out in the mid 90’s. Buehrle’s throwing in the mid 80’s in an era where guys can throw upwards of 110. The stats aren’t a wash. Gold gloves and win totals matter. Even if Maddux’s numbers are only fractionally better, they’re still better. You can’t make the argument that a guy whose stats don’t stack up (especially taking longevity of dominance into account) based on two outings. The no-hitter perfect game combination is enough to get a guy who’s on the bubble over the hump and into Cooperstown, but barring a career that lasts another decade where his numbers actually improve (you know the way Papi Ortiz’s did?) Buehrle’s not even on the bubble. Being a hometown hero is not the same as being a Hall of Famer. Writers from all over the country vote on the HOF ballot and the big picture painted by Buhrle’s career won’t be enough.
July 30th, 2009
If Buerhle retires tomorrow he’s not getting in. I think if he pitches for another 5 to 6 years at a top level this is a discussion worth having again. As great as a no hitter is or a perfect game you can’t sum up a career in one or two games. In 2003 he was 14-14. In 2006 he was 12-13. In 2007 he was 10-9. Those are three mediocre seasons. You can’t put all of that on run support.
Blake makes the point about Buerhle being the only Chicago based pitcher who has been good for a signifcant period of time. I know this is going to make you cringe.
Carlos Zambrano has been pitching for the Cubs for nine years (one less than Buerhle) has a better career ERA (3.47), higher winning percentage (.613), and a ton more strikeouts (1271). I don’t think anyone is talking about Z being a shoe in for the hall of fame. Numbers don’t lie.
July 30th, 2009
It may be too early to have this discussion BUT, I think Blake is right – Buerhle is on his way to the HOF. His career ERA over the last 10 (steroid era) years is more dominant than it seems. Koufax got in with 165 wins, after having a losing record in the first 6 of his 12 years. Sean, he had 36 wins and 40 losses over those 6 years.
If Buerhle wins an average of 10 a year for the next 7 years he is over 200. Not impossible, over the last 9 nine years he averaging over 14 per year. Add that to a World Championship (sorry Wild Bill) a perfect game and a no-hitter. Good guy (while I don’t think it should, it counts with ego driven writers), tough to keep him out if he gets to 200 career wins.
July 30th, 2009
Buehrle has been very consistent over the past ten years. Yea if it was not for the fact that he is one of four players in history to throw a no hitter and a perfect game he probably would not be in consideration for the hall of fame but the fact is that has. He also won a World Series leads the majors in the past decade averaging over 220 innings a season and third in quality starts. He also is like somewhere around the top ten in ERA.
He hasn’t had a break out season though which he will need to get in because he is probably the most underrated pitcher of the decade (besides Roy Oswalt who is a better pitcher then Buehrle but without the no-nos and the WS).
Getting better or continuing success as you get older is much more common in pitcher, especially breaking ball pitchers, then it is in hitters because of timing and smarts. Greg Maddux and Mike Mussina are prefect examples of that shit